cows and sheeps/goats milk [Archive]

Intolerant mother

31-01-2005, 09:46 AM

My daughter has asthma and excema and suffered almost permanently from stomache ache and nausea when she was little, until we eventually decided to ignore everyone who told us it was attention-seeking, saw a herbalist and put her on a dairy-free diet (she started off excluding wheat and a few other things as well). That was at the age of 5. She is now 9, she has no cows milk, butter or cheese, but eats goats or sheeps cheese quite regularly and seems fine. She has virtually no excema, her asthma varies, her stomach is usually ok, though she has bouts of feeling queasy every few weeks. She also avoids other foods like grapes, tomatoes etc. It seems to work though the hospital told me it was an 'unscientific approach' (well, I'm not a scientist) and that I should go home and feed her normally!!! Conventional doctors have been more upsetting than any use whatsoever.

Anyway, what I would like to know is what the difference is between cow's milk products and goats and sheeps milk, between butter, cheese etc. I was told that butter and cooked cheeses made with cows milk contain no lactose, so they might be worth trying again, but I'm not sure I want to risk her feeling sick for days.

I avoid giving her too much hard cheese, and try to steer her towards fresh 'cream' goats cheese as I understand that the moulds and stuff in mature cheeses can be upsetting, maybe also the fats. We went out yesterday and she ate some things that were quite likely to contain dairy - I realised when I got the end of the salad that the grated stuff on it was probably cheese (though she seemed to have scraped most of it off anyway)! She was pretty much ok until about 7 hours later when she had bad itching and urticaria on one arm and down her back, but no stomach ache or nausea.

Can anyone enlighten me at all on all this?

Thanks

Pam

31-01-2005, 12:39 PM

It could be that she has a problem with cows milk protein rather than lactose. I believe that the proteins have a slightly different make up when you compare cow, sheep or goat milk so that may be why she can tolerate one but not another.

My daughter used to suffer badly with stomach pains and constipation before we discovered that she was intolerant/allergic to milk protein and I believe that I have a sensitivity to milk as I break out in hives (urticaria) if I have anything with milk in. I really ought to do a milk challenge on my daughter but I don't want to inflict unnecessary pain on her.

Doctors are generally useless, there are very few specialists and even they don't seem to be too clear on the different intolerance/allergy/sensitivity symptoms and how to identify the problem. Go with your initiative - if you feel that you daughter is suffering as a result of eating milk products, then avoid them and maybe try her once in a while to see what happens.

PS. Which part of France are you in?

Intolerant mother

31-01-2005, 01:17 PM

Thanks for your reply - my daughter had constipation too - it was the only thing the doctors actually responded to - they prescribed laxatives which gave her dreadful diarrhoea.

I tried her on ice-cream last summer as she had gone back onto wheat with no problems. I used an organic, additive-free, colorant-free etc. etc. variety as I think she is sensitive to some of those things too. She was very excited to feel absolutely fine, until about 5 hours later when she turned green and started feeling extremely sick. She felt nauseous for a few days after that. I suggested trying her on butter last night, but she isn't that keen after the last experience. She is on a very even keel at the moment (despite a fairly traumatic time settling into French school and learning French), so in some ways I'm loath to upset her. I do feel that we probably keep her off things she might be able to eat though, and it would be nice for her to join in more when we eat out or at other people's houses. She has had attacks of itching and urticaria after eating things like figs or tomatoes, so I make sure she avoids quite a few of those things (including a lot of fruit). I think that has helped a lot.

We moved to Burgundy last summer - it's very nice but freezing cold at the moment. How old is your daughter - has she been off dairy for a long time?

Blue with cold ...

Pam

31-01-2005, 06:43 PM

My daughter screamed constantly as a baby and fortunately a health visitor suggested trying soya milk which had miraculous results, I had a new baby overnight. As I started weaning her I gradually introduced yoghurts and cheese along with other milk products but didn't link the constant constipation, screaming fits and moodiness with the food she was eating. I even rang the doctors in a panic one day when she was having a screaming fit as it was obvious that she was in agony. It was only when she was prescribed lactulose and she hit the roof that I put two and two together. Her "tantrums" always started 3 1/2 hours after eating milk (10am after her breakfast cereal with milk, mid afternoon after eating a yogurt at lunch and 10pm after milk supper). It's no wonder she was so cross when she was in agony all the time. So she has been dairy free again from the age of 19 months -ish and is now 5 1/2 years old.

A friend of mine moved to Brittany 3 years ago with her two children who are now 12 and 14, they have all picked up the language with no problems and wouldn't swap their new life for anything. I don't know what the availability of special foods is like in France but Swedish Glace by Winner or Tofutti ice cream make good alternatives to dairy ice cream. Sojasun do some very nice dairy free yoghurts too which I believe are available in France.

Intolerant mother

04-02-2005, 04:04 PM

Thanks for the advice on dairy products - I haven't been able to find Swedish glace here unfortunately, but I got an ice cream maker so I can make my own strange concoctions.

My daughter has had repeated bouts of itching and urticaria since eating tiny amounts of dairy products on Sunday. She was at her worse on Monday night and had to stay off school on Tuesday, she was itching so badly and in quite a state. I was surprised it took so long for the outbreak to peak. She ate some sheeps cheese on Monday evening (quite strong, a bit like parmesan), and I wonder if that just pushed her over the edge. Who knows? She is back on quite a strict diet now until she calms down. She seems sensitive to a lot of other things, so we keep to a diet low in natural food chemicals like salicylates. It's very dull and boring! My husband suffers badly from excema too and has been quite bad since Christmas, so they are on the wagon together and me and my son guiltily sneak the odd bit of jam or tomato ketchup.

We are off skiing tomorrow so I have packed a large box full of dairy-free, plain tasteless foods. Yum! No fondu or pizza for us! At least there's lots of snow though.

matt

05-02-2005, 05:47 AM

sincew when does the food need to be bland and tasteless. herbs fresh and dried. spices. and so on.

it's just prepackage stuff you'll need to avoid. good fresh unaltered produce. should be no probs in france.

yvonne

09-02-2005, 04:29 PM

Hi

My 2 children are allergic to cow's milk. When I discussed this with a consultant peadiatrician once, and, added that they were ok on goat's milk, he ran me down and told me that was pathetic as they had exactly the same constitutional make-up. That may be I added, but they react to cow's milk horrendously and not to goat's milk - so there must be something in it! - WAS MY ADAMANT RESPONSE.:rant:

I have since found my suspicions to be true. Yes there is lactose in all, so my children are not affected by that. They were breastfed and were fine with that. There are 2 proteins in cow's milk. Goat's milk and sheep's milk are different to cow's milk making them more easily digestible.

I have found an absolutely fab book "THE ALLERGY BIBLE" by Linda Gamlin £12.99. I purchased it in Tesco 6 months ago, but if you can't obtain it there then try ordering it in a bookshop.

Some find that they are ok if they boil cow's milk. The reason for this is a process call denaturing. This is the process in which a protein is altered by cooking, hence making it unrecognizable to your antibodies. This however, does not work for my children. It does work with egg though. They are allergic to eggs, but, if the egg is cooked in a prolonged hot temperature ie baking they they seem to be ok. The nature of the protein is altered enough and they are able to enjoy cake.

This does work for most proteins, with the exception of some ie, fish and nuts. The roasting of peanuts can make them more allergenic.

Worth a note - people with milk protein allergy/sensitivity very often are sensitive to soya. Both my children are totally intolerant to soya.

We do need more specialist in this field as it seems to becoming more and more of a problem.

ellsie

10-02-2005, 01:33 PM

I have a milk protein allergy to cow and goat produce. Not tried sheep's but I am fine with soya. The only cooking process I can eat food from is deep fried as I am fine with battered fish and doughnuts. I don't tend to try other things out as I don't like anaphalactic shock much!

yvonne

10-02-2005, 01:38 PM

Hi Ellsie

What milk do you make your batter and doughnuts from then? What reaction do you have to milk protein and which protein is it you react to?

ellsie

10-02-2005, 04:56 PM

Any batter from the fish and chip shop and any doughnuts that I have tried have all been fine.I don't know why but the cooking process seems to change the protein- it may be to do with the temp during frying.

I don't know which protein I am allergic to and I don't know how to find out either. I became allergic to milk at 27 after cutting some foods out of my diet and then trying to add them in again. When I tried to have milk products I could feel my throat closing and my mouth swelling inside and also got hives.Your lungs won't breathe properly and you panic. You feel like you are going to explode really, anaphalaxys-sorry about the spelling! It is unusual for an adult and kids can grow out of it so I hope yours do. It was trial and error as I discovered what I could eat and scones were out but doughnuts were in!:drool:

matt

11-02-2005, 04:41 AM

life's a bitch. no scones but you can have donuts!!!

proteins are affected by heat. not a gamble i'd take myself if i was allergic, i'm just intolerant. first signs for me mouth ulcers. if the amount is small. any more and the ibs etc kicks in......

don't bother to try anymore, stick with what i know. cowards way out.

maybe will re intro wheat some day soon. life would be a hell of a lot easier if i could tolerate that now. donuts, madeira cake, custard creams etc etc :drool:

ellsie

11-02-2005, 02:47 PM

I couldn't live without wheat as it would mean no pasta and very floppy pizza! But I couldn't eat custard creams anyway ..........only bourbons as they have no milk.

I do have a chocolate cake recipe which normal people have begged me for when I have made it. No wheat no dairy .I use soya marge in it Yvonne but I am sure you could try it with oil if that isn't suitable. Let me know if you want it.:eat:

matt

11-02-2005, 03:27 PM

choc and me not on speaking terms. custard creams...i think sainsbury's do some that are dairyfree in the kosher section. someone with better memory might be able to confirm. that or check out the value ones as they are often made without dairy.

thanks for the offer of the cake. if i manage to get my stomach to eat choc again i'll let you know. not that i'm at all bothered.....just think my favourite sandwich used to be cheap white bread, butter, and a sliced up mars bar!! tastes much much better than it sounds.:drool:

Intolerant mother

02-03-2005, 12:53 PM

Hello everyone

I’m interested to read the recent postings about milk, especially Yvonne’s. Why is it that doctors are so rude and narrow-minded about things they can’t explain? I’ve had to put up with similar things (e.g. There’s nothing wrong with your daughter, take her home and start feeding her normally – no explanation of why she suffered from permanent stomach ache and nausea when on a ‘normal’ diet, it was obviously all just in my neurotic imagination – it makes me so cross!).

I think I need to try to explore some milk products with my daughter, but I’m a bit nervous about doing it. She has been eating digestive biscuits recently as the ones I used to buy had no dairy, then my husband pointed out that these ones have skimmed milk powder in. She has been fine though, so maybe she can have other products which contain skimmed milk powder. I would have thought this would contain proteins though ... Anyone know anything about that? The stuff about cooked/raw milk products is interesting too. She reacted quite badly to ice-cream when I tried that – I would have thought this would be high in milk fats, and wonder if there could be some connection there if she’s ok on skimmed milk?????

Re Matt’s response about our low-salicylate/low-amine diet, it is nothing to do with eating prepackaged food, as we eat virtually none, I love cooking and cook almost all our food from fresh ingredients, and have done for most of our adult life. Salicylates/amines are actually found in most highly-flavoured foods, including all herbs and spices except for chives, parsley, garlic, shallots (though it’s true that prepackaged foods probably contain extremely high amounts due to other additives on top of these flavourings). Salt, sugar, shallots and garlic are about the only flavourings I can use. Tomatoes, peppers and most fruit (also chocolate) are also pretty bad – once you remove dairy as well that puts a lot of constraints on your cooking! It does seem to work very well though, my daughter has been a lot better since she was on this – her recent blip was due to our becoming increasingly relaxed about where to draw the line!

Re wheat-free I used to cook some really nice cakes for my daughter using ground almonds or hazelnuts and pure margarine. They’re really moist and tasty and there are lots of recipes for them in normal cook books.

matt

03-03-2005, 05:07 AM

yeah i've seen the wheat free cakes. it's just the motivation factor with me. i can do them for other people but have trouble when for me.

don't quote me but it sounds like you're daughter more intolerant to lactose than allergy.
icecream full of lactose from the cream. skimmed milk mainly water and protein.
it would explain the confusion. just a suggestion.

hope you didn't take any offence at a comment? none meant. i am lazy at the moment and eat very plain food as it's easier than finding stuff that's free from.

Intolerant mother

03-03-2005, 07:16 AM

Thanks for the stuff about protein/lactose - I wasn't sure what was in what, so if it's lactose that's in the fatty stuff maybe that's it. She's ok with sheeps and goats cheese etc. though, and i thought that had lactose in - all very confusing.

I didn't take offence at your comments but I know I was a bit prickly - I'm a bit oversensitive about the whole food subject from family/doctors etc. treating me like neurotic mother/complete idiot. My mother-in-law used to wave ice-cream in front of my daughter and say 'Ahhh, won't you let her have any?'!!! It's frustrating when you put a lot of time and effort into trying to help and people just think you're being silly!

Can you not eat chocolate either? My daughter eats some as I think she should have some treats, but I have a feeling too much isn't good. We can get good chocolate here that has no dairy but isn't as high in chocolate as Green and Black's etc.

Must take the kids to the bus!

Bye

matt

03-03-2005, 08:59 AM

sheep and goats lactose slightly different and people can sometimes get away with it. though a word of warning i've read that it's only delaying the inevitable, you're likely to get a problem with them eventually. worth it for the occasional treat of goats cheese or butter.?

don't take offence here, i don't think anyone is likely to say or mean anything that will be offensive. sometimes said wrongly but meant well. we've all been there, accused of being cranky/nuts just damn odd!!! ok i my case it's true i am all three but there you go!

i can't belive you're mother in law. saying that, i can, mine is a bloomin witch poisoning my daughters mind with her viscous rubbish. has caused me loads of problems since my wife and i split.

last time i had choc i got mouth ulcers and a bit of indegestion. not worth the trouble for the little treats. just so carob and plamil (sugar not sweeteners) are ok for the odd square as a treat. yeah i would prefer the choc but....

good user name. are you generally intolerant in life or just to specific things:lol2:

(don't worry i do understand you mean you have an intolerant child)

my mum is/was pretty intolerant aswell never got away with much without a clip round the ear!!!:D never did me any harm not like i grew up to have any pschological/food/mental problems!!B)

matt

03-03-2005, 09:01 AM

where are you in france? do you have problems getting stuff or is it better there than here?

probably help to know if you are ex-pat or french or have ever lived in england?

Intolerant mother

03-03-2005, 10:19 AM

Yes, I suppose I am pretty intolerant - maybe oversensitive, touchy, can't take criticism would be better!!! (Hmmm, no, actually I'm pretty intolerant as well!)

We're in Burgundy - its' freezing cold, there's been snow on the ground for 6 weeks and it was -13 on Monday. No fun waiting for the school bus! We've only been here since August.

Food here is good - as always just a question of reading the labels. There's a big choice of goats and sheeps cheeses. They do some range of free-from type stuff but I find my daughter's worse on those things for some reason - I think there's too much other stuff in them, including mixes with potato flour and grain flours (apparently that can be bad ... so I just get normal stuff with no dairy. I think I might try more things with skimmed milk and see how she copes. It might be a question of quantity, or it might be that there are so many other things cut out of her diet which were contributing.

My husband is very sensitive- he did some skin prick allergy tests which showed he had no allergies but was sensitive to everything, so it's difficult to isolate specific things!

Intolerant mother

03-03-2005, 10:25 AM

P.s we have goats/sheeps cheeses every day for tea and sometimes sheeps yoghurt, it hasn't caused problems yet, and at least I know she's getting calcium. If it starts causing problems it'll have to go. She likes ham but I limit that because of the preservatives .... We can get good rillettes with no preservatives, but it's a bit fatty and she seems better with the cheese, but then, it's all guesswork really!

matt

04-03-2005, 04:26 AM

ham made locally in the butchers etc should have only salt and salt peter (potassium nitrate i think) it's only the mass produced stuff that'll have e000 etc etc.

so worth checking out the locals. proper stuff is not packed with preservatives/colours/flavour enhancers etc etc.

i would limit the goats stuff. too much might bring on the reaction. if she's prone to it. the more she has and more often will sometimes bring on a reaction that might otherwise not appear.

mind you all this is just supposition. none is definately known in science. life would be too easy for that.:lol2:

atleast you've got a supply of free from. who makes them? have they a web address? might be worth hassling them to see if they could supply to us poor people in uk.

Intolerant mother

04-03-2005, 04:39 PM

Thanks for that, maybe I'll try and go easy on the goats cheese. I've bought some biscuits with skimmed milk to see how she is with those - it's difficult as a lot of things here have butter, and I'm not sure where that fits in. If the lactose is in the fat maybe butter will be bad. All this about whether milk products are cooked or not is bewildering too - so many things seem to make a difference, I suppose it really is just trial and error.

The trouble is with children as well is it's not easy getting them to analyse how they feel - she can say she feels well because she wants to be able to eat more stuff, or she can say she feels sick because she's actually tired or fed-up, or in a bad mood .... I suppose you just have to trust what they say!

Does your daughter have food problems? It sounds as if you don't get to see her too much, that must be hard.

Pam

04-03-2005, 08:25 PM

Lactose is a milk sugar (-ose = sugar eg fructose, sucrose, glucose etc.) but I don't know if it sits in the milk fat or not. I've seen reports from quite a few people recently saying that cooked milk products don't have a bad effect whereas uncooked milk does. All very confusing!

My daughter is approaching 6 and she is the same as yours, she can say that she feels ill because she is tired, or just feels that way out and when the reaction is non specific, a few hours later it is really hard to tell how it is affecting her. I haven't done a proper challenge for years but she has recently had a few accidental minor milk challenges and I haven't noticed a specific problem. Maybe she doesn't react anymore?

I don't have specific reactions either, I tend to suffer from hives frequently and get a stuffy nose but other than that I can't say "that is because I ate xxxxx".

matt

05-03-2005, 04:42 AM

my little 6.5 year old horror!! no thankfully no food probs except the normal fussy eating ones and the sugar monster if too many sweets/chocs/colours.

see her several times a week but never enough, not the same as all the time but such is life, enjoy the time we have.

i think, but don't quote me, most/all lactose is in the cream. skimmed milk has the protein. protein are affected by cooking. butter is obvioulsy made from the cream.
the problem is everyone's intolerance/allergy is individual. one person will be a ble to eat butter, some will be able to have cooked protein and so on. all you can do is try to figure out what are the triggers for your daughter.

sorry can't be more helpfull than that.

my problem shows itself by mouth ulcers and stomach upsets. bloomin hassle. i ate something this week that was a problem, three ulcers on tongue and grumbling tummy! believ me i'm not doing this :bleh:

Intolerant mother

05-03-2005, 09:25 AM

Well, I'm quite reassured that not everyone has specific reactions. I've been very surprised at how many people seem very clear about what they can and can't eat and thought maybe I was doing something wrong. When I did a caveman diet with my daughter she was fine and didn't really react to anything afterwards so I gave up being systematic about trying things out new things. It seems to be very cumulative with her - she reaches breaking point if she eats too many things like chocolates/colourings etc. though the experiment with ice-cream suggested to me that there's a definite dairy link of some sort. I suppose I'll just have to try out different dairy products and see how it goes. I suspect she isn't good with butter as most times she's felt ill after eating stuff away from home butter was the most likely ingredient. I'm not sure about clarified butter though, but that probably wouldn't help much anyway - just as easy to use Pure.

Thanks very much for all your helpful comments, it is really reassuring to hear about other people's experiences.

My mother-in-law is very nice and well-meaning really, she just doesn't get the food thing, although my father-in-law has terrible health problems with excema, asthma, which he tries to deal with by avoiding dairy etc. etc. She's very overweight, so I think it's 'denial' (if she accepted that you can control your diet she'd have to do something about her own!). It's funny what an emotional area food is.

Glad you get to see your daughter regularly - I don't know what I'd do if I had to live a long way from mine.

Snowing heavily here again ....